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Street-able NA engine 8v vs. 16v

stick70 said:
But 16v volvo engines sound like garbage :-P

/irrational preferences
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Pushrod 8V motors sound better than OHC 8V. :oogle:

Although really, on my PV's engine, I've noticed differences in the sound between cams. Some produce much more clearly enunciated 'pops'.
 
The DCOE's sort of fog the general area with gas fumes, in case you decide to suddenly floor it, there's fuel/air waiting at the ready to go in.
 
Sorry for the thread jack!(or is it?)
shoestring said:
Head milled 2.5mm. Intake and exhaust port modifications. No cat. Properly sized exhaust pipe for power output. LH2.4 fuel trim tune. Ignition map modified, but not dyno tuned. The pinout grounding mod showed 0 changes to power curve in either +3 or -3 degrees so we said F it. Easiest thing to duplicate would be K cam. It's installed at -1.5 degrees because that's as close as we could get to 0 with what we had. Moving the cam timing also has little to no effect. H cam made less power. Airbox delete, cone filter.

I'll post the dyno sheet on it. 144whp @ 5644 rpm.
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Interesting the K cam made more power for you. It was the other way around for me, but not by too much and there may have been a couple other tuning and timing differences that were skewing the results more in the H's favor(definitely was running different camshaft timing, don't know about the EZK/LH chips at the time).

Moving the cam timing definitely makes a difference for me, too(46/38mm valve 530 with mediocre RSI porting, 0.040"/1mm off head with .040" MLS headgasket, KGT Type 1 header with 44mm primary and secondary pipes. Retarding the H cam on one day 2? from straight up lost me 7lb-ft at peak, more than that below peak, and finally started matching straight up at 6200rpm(139wtrq and 133whp vs 146wtrq and 136whp at 5500-5700rpm). Another day, with the K cam, straight up made 131whp/141wtrq, 4? advanced made 133whp/147wtrq(same hp at 6200rpm as straight up), 8? advanced made 126whp/148wtrq(with similar torque below peaks to the 4? advanced run).

I'd be curious to see what you're running for injectors and ignition/fueling, if you want to share. I'd be happy to send over some files I've run with. I made a few tweaks yesterday.

That's good torque/power for that much hp at that low of rpm. Time for a better intake manifold and you'll gain a lot up top! Maybe you need to retard the cam for more peak HP, too, or it's going to stay the same because of the b230 manifold... I have the same problem. I haven't dyno'd that high before, but I haven't dyno'd in a long long time and you have more compression than I did.

What headgasket? Any idea how much your pistons stick out of the block? Is the bottom end original or rebuilt? If rebuilt, which pistons?

Does the dyno sheet have AFR on it? What are you running at WOT and have you messed with when it goes into open loop in the fuel tune?

When you say properly sized exhaust pipe, are you running the factory header and just no cat with custom exhaust after, or a full header? What size?

stick70 said:
But 16v volvo engines sound like garbage :-P
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:nod:

JohnMc said:
Pushrod 8V motors sound better than OHC 8V. :oogle:

Although really, on my PV's engine, I've noticed differences in the sound between cams. Some produce much more clearly enunciated 'pops'.
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Ha! Maybe... Camshafts definitely change the way an engine sounds, they breathe differently!
 
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klr142 said:
I'd be curious to see what you're running for injectors and ignition/fueling, if you want to share. I'd be happy to send over some files I've run with. I made a few tweaks yesterday.
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I chose GM L98 (80's 350 tuned port) injectors.

klr142 said:
Time for a better intake manifold and you'll gain a lot up top!
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We have looked at this a million times and know there is power there, but for the simplicity, serviceability, and obvious cost of it, we have not chosen to move forward with it.

klr142 said:
What headgasket? Any idea how much your pistons stick out of the block? Is the bottom end original or rebuilt? If rebuilt, which pistons?!
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Is there anything but Cometic? Ours is 0.030". I think the pistons are between 0.002" and 0.004" in the hole. Stock bottom end, I did put bearings in it.

klr142 said:
Does the dyno sheet have AFR on it? What are you running at WOT and have you messed with when it goes into open loop in the fuel tune? !
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Yes it does. 13.2-13.3:1. There may be a little more power if it were a little fatter but there is a fuel economy aspect to how we use it and we were happy with these numbers at this AFR. My kid interned at a dyno for a little bit and we have adjusted the fuel map in the LH table for our application.

klr142 said:
When you say properly sized exhaust pipe, are you running the factory header and just no cat with custom exhaust after, or a full header? What size?
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Factory header. I cut off the merge at the end where it necks down and welded on a 2.375" pipe with a Flowmaster 50(?) series. Whichever the quiet version is, the 50 or 40. 2.375" OD pipe with 16 gauge wall yields 2.25" id, good for 186 flywheel hp. We felt that was reasonable without being too large. In retrospect, after more research, cutting the merge off may have been an error, but it was pretty tight. Probably a moot point.

I'm in the process of building a proper header for it, specific to this application. Used exhaustive research, PipeMax, and Solidworks to design it. I won't speculate on what kind of power increase it will yield. Currently have the tubes cut and a jig built to simulate the head in the car. I need to set aside a good amount of time aside to tack it together to be able to get it tig'd up. Time is tough to come by between work, working on my house, helping a buddy swap a B230FT in his 240 and helping my kid put an M90 in his 940!
 
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Recently when I went to a chipped EZK LH2.4 in my 1993 245 from stock EZK. I noticed the engine sound changed for the better. Expecially above 3k rpms. It sounds much nicer and like it's happy up there.
 
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shoestring said:
I chose GM L98 (80's 350 tuned port) injectors.

What size are they?

We have looked at this a million times and know there is power there, but for the simplicity, serviceability, and obvious cost of it, we have not chosen to move forward with it.

I hear ya. It's like 8 years down the road since I first started talking about doing something different... It's apparently been sufficient!

Is there anything but Cometic? Ours is 0.030". I think the pistons are between 0.002" and 0.004" in the hole. Stock bottom end, I did put bearings in it.

B23 I guess then? I was just curious comparing compression with your setup having so much more off the head. Stock combustion chamber, just massaged ports with stock valves in a 530 head?

Yes it does. 13.2-13.3:1. There may be a little more power if it were a little fatter but there is a fuel economy aspect to how we use it and we were happy with these numbers at this AFR. My kid interned at a dyno for a little bit and we have adjusted the fuel map in the LH table for our application.

Sounds perfect to me.

Factory header. I cut off the merge at the end where it necks down and welded on a 2.375" pipe with a Flowmaster 50(?) series. Whichever the quiet version is, the 50 or 40. 2.375" OD pipe with 16 gauge wall yields 2.25" id, good for 186 flywheel hp. We felt that was reasonable without being too large. In retrospect, after more research, cutting the merge off may have been an error, but it was pretty tight. Probably a moot point.

I'm in the process of building a proper header for it, specific to this application. Used exhaustive research, PipeMax, and Solidworks to design it. I won't speculate on what kind of power increase it Currently have the tubes cut and a jig built to simulate the head in the car. I need to set aside a good amount of time aside to tack it together to be able to get it tig'd up. Time is tough to come by between work, working on my house, helping a buddy swap a B230FT in his 240 and helping my kid put an M90 in his 940!
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I bet! So, your exhaust factory downpipe dumps straight into a dual inlet muffler and goes out single? Or do you have an actual merge on it before the muffler?

Thanks for the responses! :cool:
 
I think the injectors are like +10%. Found them on Stan Weiss' site.

Nope, it's a B230 out of a 940. I personally prefer oil squirters, especially in this application. The B230s I've had heads off and have measured have had the pistons at plus or minus 0.004" of an inch from the deck. I always assumed target was flush with deck.

Previous iterations of this engine show that AFR around 12.8 might be a little better for power.

Nope, my mistake in explaining. The merge in the factory header gets pretty small at its exit. I cut it back to where I could butt weld the 2.375" tube, which I had squished into an oval shape, to it. Just one inlet/exhaust on the muffler.
 
You'd think, at that point, they'd design two semi-circular valves that replace the four individual valves in the chamber.
 
vwbusman66 said:
You'd think, at that point, they'd design two semi-circular valves that replace the four individual valves in the chamber.
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The valves need to rotate to keep the sealing surfaces happy.

VB242 said:
Honda made an oval piston motorcycle to maximize valve area. F' an Audi,the motor runs backwards.
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Some honduhs run backwards, and not sure but maybe misterbitchy. /jvl
 
Can someone point me in the direction of where to find images/descriptions of 16v porting stuff? I've googled and am struggling to find active images.

I know the 234 head is pretty adequate for most turbo applications but I suspect NA poses new fun problems.
 
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