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injector upgrade

Lord_Athlon said:
Reason enough to procure injectors to replace injectors that are currently working as designed?
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You have a crystal ball that tells you his injectors are working as designed? It is highly unlikely that 25 year old pintle injectors are still working to original design spec/flow and pattern.... I appreciate he didin't ask about replacing injectors that have been determined to be an issue.
 
lookforjoe said:
You have a crystal ball that tells you his injectors are working as designed? It is highly unlikely that 25 year old pintle injectors are still working to original design spec/flow and pattern.... I appreciate he didin't ask about replacing injectors that have been determined to be an issue.
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I'm not sure why you are so on edge about this.
 
lookforjoe said:
Sometimes, yes. The design & technology of the composite injectors is better than the pintle design. Just because a manufacturer continued to use them doesn't make them any better.
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Not really sure what you're babbling about right now. There are modern metering orifices that produce the same spray pattern as an 8V pintle style injector. Clearly this topic is beyond your comprehension.
 
gross polluter said:
Not really sure what you're babbling about right now. There are modern metering orifices that produce the same spray pattern as an 8V pintle style injector. Clearly this topic is beyond your comprehension.
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We're not just talking about the specific nozzle design. Although I still would choose the 4 nozzle over single, less opportunity for clogging the pintle design is known for. Why stick with the clunky old units when you can use newer technology, if one is replacing the original crap.
 
There are many Ford 4 hole injectors with EV1 connectors. Look up flow rates on one of the available Bosch injector lists to find what you desire. But about the only improvement will be a smoother idle.
 
lookforjoe said:
We're not just talking about the specific nozzle design. Although I still would choose the 4 nozzle over single, less opportunity for clogging the pintle design is known for. Why stick with the clunky old units when you can use newer technology, if one is replacing the original crap.
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We get it. You like to regurgitate stuff you've read on a forum. Clearly you have no first hand knowledge of characterizing a fuel injector. You really don't seem to get that there are modern injector designs that have the proper spray pattern for an 8V head. None of what you recommend has that. It's really that simple.
 
If your injectors are clogged and have a bad spray pattern a Ultrasonic cleaning will do the job, otherwise, there are lot of better ways of spending money.
 
gross polluter said:
We get it. You like to regurgitate stuff you've read on a forum. Clearly you have no first hand knowledge of characterizing a fuel injector. You really don't seem to get that there are modern injector designs that have the proper spray pattern for an 8V head. None of what you recommend has that. It's really that simple.
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OK, so you or others you are aware of have performed dynamic testing that indicates only the spray pattern of pintle design is appropriate for 8v intake ports? Have you also monitored individual cylinder exhaust temps for deviation? What criteria are you using to establish your assertions? I'm genuinely interested.

I'm using the composite on my 8v, with no indication of buildup/deposits in the lower runner section or head ports. I've had it apart several times since I switched. I don't have individual egt probes in the header runners or other means of establishing that the switch may have caused deviations in individual cylinder performance though.
 
lookforjoe said:
OK, so you or others you are aware of have performed dynamic testing that indicates only the spray pattern of pintle design is appropriate for 8v intake ports? Have you also monitored individual cylinder exhaust temps for deviation? What criteria are you using to establish your assertions? I'm genuinely interested.

I'm using the composite on my 8v, with no indication of buildup/deposits in the lower runner section or head ports. I've had it apart several times since I switched. I don't have individual egt probes in the header runners or other means of establishing that the switch may have caused deviations in individual cylinder performance though.
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Yes, when MS2 first offered sequential 4 cylinder fueling roughy 7 years ago I did extensive testing with a set of (relatively) good stock 19lb 8V injectors. Not only characterizing their dynamic flow rates and offsets, but the spray pattern as well. The goal was to "modernize" a mostly stock 8V NA engine to determine if there's any effiency to be gained with modern engine management. This research was brought on after reading several SAE papers on the subject, finding that an intake port with a single intake valve is less likely to consume the entire metered fuel charge with an atomizing injector, opposed to a narrow stream. The issue here not being deposit buildup, but port soaking during the injection event.

This is the mistake most people make when selecting a "better" injector for their car, assuming an injector that atomizes is superior to an injector with a narrow, focused stream. Two things happen with an atomizing injector: a percentage of the fuel injected gets absorbed into the port wall. During the intake stroke, not all of the fuel metered by the ECU will be consumed. The ECU obviously compensates for this in closed loop, however, you end up with a phenomena where the AFR will cycle during steady state cruise due to the port wall saturating and shedding fuel, and absorbing fuel again. What this results in is lost fuel economy and throttle response due to the inability to get all of the metered fuel into the chamber.

On an 8V engine and similar single valve ports, we ideally want the spray pattern as such that the injection event sprays fuel on the intake valve and that's it. Letting unatomized fuel soak on the intake valve benefits us in two ways: the heat of the valve boils the fuel and vaporizes it, and what hasn't vaporized is atomized by valve shear when the intake valve first opens. Hardly any fuel is lost to port soak because the intake valve isn't porous like cast aluminum or iron.

This is why you will find on any modern port injected engine the injection events are timed at low RPM and loads as such that the induction event is complete before the intake valve opens.

Back to my old NA 8V. During my testing I found that GM LS2 injectors have the identical spray pattern as stock 8V injectors. A little large for NA, but this is advantageous as injector events are shorter and can be more precisely timed. I characterized the offset and dynamic flow rate of each injector and was able to implement that data into MS2 as it allowed for individual injector characterizing. Spending countless hours on the dyno I was able to map out a solid VE table and injector timing table. The end result was a bone stock 245 (with exception of B cam) that averaged 25mpg city and 36mpg highway. Throttle response was crisp, and AFR during cruising would hold 16.0:1 without fluctuating even a single tenth.

Sure, you can throw any old set of whatever injectors you want in an 8V and it will start/run/drive. But, if you truly want "gains" you have to look beyond the static flow rate and how "new" the injector design is to accomplish any sort of gains.
 
I dont know if this will work for you but it works well on a 940gl with a b230fb engine.

I used a 960 maf and glt 16v injectors ...you will have to chip the ecu in one way or another.

In sweden they have a rally class called VOC ( volvo original cup) they get close 180hp out of a b230fb with 531 head and 160hp with 406??? head....they can only use volvo parts and the original ecu.
You should check that root out ...if you must have all volvo
 
GP - Thank you for the detailed response. That (port soaking due to wider atomized spray) makes good sense. I will have to re-evaluate pintle injectors for my 8v Fiat LH2.4 install. My AFR's seem good under varied loads & cruise, however my mileage is sub-par, so your explanation of the resulting symptom created with the later injectors may certainly be contributing to that.

Do you have addtional info on the GM injectors you used I can use for reference in my search?
 
Port soak?
I get that the metal of the intake or deposits on a valve could absorb fuel, but is fuel soaking in and evaporating out with each valve opening?
would that make a significant difference? wouldn't it kind of be averaged out each cycle if rpm is steady?
Any good references that explains this for a neophyte?
 
apachechef said:
Port soak?
I get that the metal of the intake or deposits on a valve could absorb fuel, but is fuel soaking in and evaporating out with each valve opening?
would that make a significant difference? wouldn't it kind of be averaged out each cycle if rpm is steady?
Any good references that explains this for a neophyte?
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I was wondering the same thing.
 
apachechef said:
Port soak?
I get that the metal of the intake or deposits on a valve could absorb fuel, but is fuel soaking in and evaporating out with each valve opening?
would that make a significant difference? wouldn't it kind of be averaged out each cycle if rpm is steady?
Any good references that explains this for a neophyte?
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Out of everyone on this forum, you've professed yourself to be an MS expert. If you don't understand or haven't read on the concept of X-tau accel enrichment, There's really nothing I can do to simplify it for you.
 
lookforjoe said:
Do you have addtional info on the GM injectors you used I can use for reference in my search?
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Sure, I'll dig up what info I have. I've done far more extensive reareach on LS3 injectors which have the same spray pattern, just different dynamic flow rate. The biggest thing we need to break you of is thinking "pintle" style injectors are the only type of injector that has an ideal spray pattern for 8V style heads. LS2 injectors have the same 4 hole diffuser as "modern" injectors, yet produce the same 8 degree spray pattern as 8V injectors. Doesn't mattter how modern the injector is. Fact of the matter is, each port has an ideal spray pattern and the GM LS series engine is as close as you're going to get for an OEM injector that matches the Volvo 8V head.
 
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