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Old 07-10-2019, 01:47 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Broke4speed View Post
OT: I always thought the double belt was due to the mechanical fan.
Maybe that too.
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:12 PM   #27
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Water pump runs on holy spirit. My 164 broke belt (single) and to get home we took rubber band from map pocket.
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:16 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Broke4speed View Post
OT: I always thought the double belt was due to the mechanical fan.
7/9's ran the fan/water pump off a single belt. The only disadvantage I see to that system is that if one is cruising along the highway and the power steering belt breaks, there's not going to be an indication that the water pump is no longer spinning. At least with the stock 240 system in the event that both alternator belts are shed, at least the alternator light will come on and hopefully get noticed before the engine overheats.
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:32 PM   #29
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I believe it was a custom case for our engines. The DR44's came on stuff like the Tahoe's, Suburban's, that kinda thing. Eric (badvolvo) should have more details.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:08 PM   #30
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Wouldnt your idler pulley create premature belt fatigue from being tensioned on the "outside" of the belt? In all my years of working on cars, I've never seen a v belt tensioned on the outside. Was taught many years ago v belts should never be tension that way due to the very reason i mentioned.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:47 PM   #31
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Wouldnt your idler pulley create premature belt fatigue from being tensioned on the "outside" of the belt? In all my years of working on cars, I've never seen a v belt tensioned on the outside. Was taught many years ago v belts should never be tension that way due to the very reason i mentioned.
All of these things here are things that I was thinking.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:21 PM   #32
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Dave when I come over saturday we can take my alternator off and compare or just look at it. Its sits damn near on top and to the right. Its the stock unit from a chevy 5.3L
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:50 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron740gl View Post
Wouldnt your idler pulley create premature belt fatigue from being tensioned on the "outside" of the belt? In all my years of working on cars, I've never seen a v belt tensioned on the outside. Was taught many years ago v belts should never be tension that way due to the very reason i mentioned.
So maybe a belt doesn't last as long? Currently I'm getting a few thousands miles before they need attention because of the slipping, requiring more tension, more wear, and more slipping, and so on. So I can make keep making the tension even tighter and replace belts more often or try something unconventional.

I've read a LOT about this subject and there is only opinions on back-side idlers. No facts. Opinions say it'll last fewer miles, but will do better if using a more flexible cog style belt, which I am.

So assuming this installation is a success and if it then lasts my entire trip to Calif and back in September, then I'll be ahead. But I'll bring an extra set of belts just in case.

Did a test fit and now making some adjustments. I already have a few small design changes documented that will increase adjustability.

Right now I think I want to re-clock the case on my alternator 90 degrees. That plug at the top sits at 12 o'clock and is getting a bit close to my turbo diaphragm. Has anyone done that to an alternator like this? I've never taken one like this apart before.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:52 PM   #34
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BTW, those spacers are 1.5 inches long. I think I forgot to mention that. Bought them from Grainger.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:44 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Easy? No. But I agree it could be a better setup. Better to have the alternator on the non-exhaust side.
Parts needed from my imagination: New mounting bracket for alternator and AC. New PS bracket to mount PS on exhaust side. New PS pump. New PS hoses. Introduce a PS reservoir where there isn't one in my car now.
Anything else?

Still, is there anyone who can say for certain there will be NO BELT SLIPPAGE with a 740 single belt using a monster alternator pushing millions of amps?

For now, I'm moving forward with this. If it works like I expect, maybe it'll help a few others in a similar situation instead of suggesting they rearrange all their accessories.
my 84 has a 740 style setup. the only change you have to make is grabbing a longer return line for the reservoir and just make the high pressure line. i used the HP line that came on the car and got some nasty good hoseclamps. been a few years with no problems. or you can have a shop make the line, and that still pretty cheap.

the bracket on that side is the same for the pump and alternator. the long bolt drops out and you move them around. coming from a guy who never cares for his car mechanically, ive had zero belt slip since then. 740 routing wraps the belt really nicely on the pulley.

that said, the new tensioner setup here is super sick, and id have definently considered it way back when.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:55 PM   #36
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I have reclocked the old Bosch style, no issues, dunno about yous though. You mentioned it being a Mechman? That front case half is much different than mine...
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:05 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
I have reclocked the old Bosch style, no issues, dunno about yous though. You mentioned it being a Mechman? That front case half is much different than mine...
Yeah, I took a few old Bosch alternators apart years ago for powder coating. Those were pretty easy. Newer style alternators like this are foreign to me. Hopefully no surprises like springs and ball bearings exploding all over the room when I open it.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:43 PM   #38
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I have reclocked the old Bosch style, no issues, dunno about yous though. You mentioned it being a Mechman? That front case half is much different than mine...
That looks like a custom cnc case. The stock gm case doesn't look as blingy
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:48 PM   #39
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That looks like a custom cnc case. The stock gm case doesn't look as blingy
Yeah, Mechman bling version. Reclocking completed. Was much was easier than I thought. Easier than I recall the Bosch being too. Maybe more progress tomorrow.

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Old 07-11-2019, 11:57 PM   #40
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Gotcha. My Mechman is just the normal cast case.

Good to know it's easy to reclock if needed. I'm on the hunt for an alternator for the Dodge, might see if I can source a DR44 and adapt it over...
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Old 07-12-2019, 06:25 AM   #41
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RECLOCKING the Delco (CS130D version) Mechman.

Remove the front pulley. Mine was a 22 mm nut I spun off with an impact wrench.

Then remove these three nuts (8 mm socket). Remove the output post nut also.

That back plastic cover will then lift off. If it's tight or hanging up on the studs, give it some force.
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Old 07-12-2019, 06:27 AM   #42
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Remove these bolts. There are four of them (1/4 inch socket).
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Old 07-12-2019, 06:34 AM   #43
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Now the case cane be split. It may be tight. I put the front shaft on a piece of wood and tapped the case downward with a plastic mallet and it slowly separated and eventually came apart.

Turn case to reclock to your preferred position, re-insert the bolts, and slowly tap it back together until the bolts can be threaded. You can use the bolts to cinch it back together.
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Old 07-12-2019, 02:21 PM   #44
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A short boring video showing not much happening.

EDIT: For posterity sake, these belts are from O'Reilly Auto Parts, MasterPro 7410, 10 x 1060 mm (3/8 x 41.75 inches).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O9f...ature=youtu.be
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Old 07-12-2019, 04:31 PM   #45
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I always had an issue with my cascading efan relays causing my stereo to undervolt in my ac equipped 242 in Tucson Weather (110+)

Actually, I used a properly sized fan, and I didnt need 145 amps at idle.
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Old 07-12-2019, 07:02 PM   #46
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I always had an issue with my cascading efan relays causing my stereo to undervolt in my ac equipped 242 in Tucson Weather (110+)

Actually, I used a properly sized fan, and I didnt need 145 amps at idle.
I don't think I need it either, but it's nice to know it's there if I do. But maybe you actually DiD need 145 amps at idle, since I dont have undervolt issues anymore.

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Old 07-12-2019, 07:09 PM   #47
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I don't hink I need it either, but it's nice to know it's there if I do. But maybe you actually DiD need 145 amps at idle, since I dont have undervolt issues.
Just messing with you. What you needed was a modern hairpin stator alternator, which probably didn't exist yet. Since that seems to be the difference in my car between a hot voltage drop and no voltage drop at 14.7v.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:44 PM   #48
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Dave, awesome progress. What about the idea of using a toothed pulley cut to match the toothed belt? If that would work it would be simpler that adding an extra pulley/tensioner. Would there be too much wear on the belts caused by the engagement?
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:33 PM   #49
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Dave, awesome progress. What about the idea of using a toothed pulley cut to match the toothed belt? If that would work it would be simpler that adding an extra pulley/tensioner. Would there be too much wear on the belts caused by the engagement?
From what I can find a cog drive system would need a special cog belt and cog pulleys, similar to a modern supercharger belt drive. If you mean something just for the alternator that could engage the cogs on a standard v-belt, it doesnt exist. It would be a custom prototype part that's never been done as far I know.

I know in years past you could have pulleys knurled or machined to create more friction. Those services no longer exist that I can find.

So for now this will be the experiment du joir. If it doesnt work out, then I can revisit other experiments.

During my many experiments, one thing that I found helps is just moving the alternator further from the engine, which this mod does anyway. I find that gradually increases belt wrap, and I did see a SLIGHT improvement from a 925 mm belt, which had almost no traction, to a 950, which was better, to a 975, which I most recently had and worked for a while until it didn't. This pulley idea was born from that progression.
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:22 AM   #50
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Would there be too much wear on the belts caused by the engagement?
Thinking further, I think this *could* be done in a similar way as how a round tooth timing belt engages. It would need to be very precise and you would need to study a few different brands of v-belts with cogs to see how consistent they are, unless you plan to stay with one brand of belt forever. I don't think it would be simple though.

EDIT: I was looking a some v-belts with the cog pattern in my garage. I have a few different ones and some from different manufacturers. All cogs appear rounded, but they definitely are not consistently spaced. Some have more space between the cogs than others and some have larger cogs, so this kind of idea could be possible as long as you used the cog belt it was designed for. Otherwise pretty difficult.
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