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Old 10-22-2018, 03:27 PM   #26
Pillow
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It is a tough decision especially since it sounds like you will have a shop do the work.

If shop, then I support a healthy 16v B230 setup. Would be a street screamer where back road essess puts a big smile on your face. Combine John's bottom end with the 16v head and I think you would have a winner.

If you go LS with a shop, it will get expensive fast. There is just too many custom parts and work to be done IMO. The LS engines are dirt cheap no problem there. ~400HP flywheel easy with a 5.3 and cam swap for under $1000. The cost per HP is stupid low. Again engines are cheap, it is all the other stuff that adds up. But 400HP on 225 tires is a smoke show on demand!

To the OP, what are your plans for the car? Street or track or? really 250 for a corner carver is plenty. Actually 400 on the street is overkill as well.
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:27 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Gagnon View Post
Yes, yes and yes.
So the profile of the cam puts peak power below 6k? Why upgrade the valve train if you’re only revving it to 6k?
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:07 PM   #28
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Yeah what are you planning on doing with the car?
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
There are some real advantages to 16v...but so far the way virtually every one I've seen done by everybody misses the point by a mile...
Its not that complicated of a point. Not sure how it can be missed by a mile. Most mess it up by trying to fix a head that isn't broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Real cams on those heads require solid lifters and sadly the only solution there is shim under bucket lifters. Expensive and very time consuming. Really, just a general pain in the ass.
what are "real cams"? We do plenty good on hydro lifters. You will be needing a good deal of head work to take advantage of a cam with enough lift to require solid lifters. Its not an 8v.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:13 AM   #30
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I've got a stahl header for sale in for sale.
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Old 10-23-2018, 04:21 PM   #31
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I gotta 16v turbo fully already built race squirter motor in for sale! 3500, picked up at my house. Did I say already race built? Pistons and rods bought from RSI and motor put together at M&B machine shop near racetrack. Fully balanced 2.5L steel stroker crank with longer then stock H beam rods and custom wisco 16v turbo pistons for longer rods. Forged H beam rods bought from RSI, longer then stock. Forged custom wisco 16v turbo pistons to match longer then stock rods. Factory boat 16v PZ cams.

Head already has ford valve springs put in it bought from Yoshifab..

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...ghlight=sbabbs
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:03 PM   #32
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Looks great Simon!
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbabbs View Post
I gotta 16v turbo fully already built race squirter motor in for sale! 3500, picked up at my house. Did I say already race built? Pistons and rods bought from RSI and motor put together at M&B machine shop near racetrack. Fully balanced 2.5L steel stroker crank with longer then stock H beam rods and custom wisco 16v turbo pistons for longer rods.

Head already has ford valve springs put in it bought from Yoshifab..

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...ghlight=sbabbs
Sounds good price..But turbo and the guy says he wants n.a.
And to make things harder he says standard gearbox and axle ratio.
That make a big limitation>

Just curiosity now since this ain't what he's asking for, what cams? What c-c rods?
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:56 AM   #34
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Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I'm all set now.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:41 PM   #35
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Well what are they?? Sounds like a super cool build!
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:00 PM   #36
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A stock 90+ b230 bottom end with a 16v head and well sorted is comparable to a stockish b230ft but with more farty sounds out the exhaust
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Old 10-24-2018, 05:10 PM   #37
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If you didn't know you can buy a stock volvo 16v boat NA b230 motor, 171 horse power. Look for AQ171c or AQ251, same b230 with 16v head, better cams also then car 16v heads. Also it's 2.5L with steel stroker crankshaft.

I've bought a couple, to race em NA nothing is really needed I don't think, maybe stiffer valve springs for higher rev?
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Old 10-24-2018, 05:44 PM   #38
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Isn't that 171hp on carbs? With a well tuned efi you'll be gaining a good bit of power.
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Old 10-24-2018, 08:59 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Real cams on those heads require solid lifters and sadly the only solution there is shim under bucket lifters. Expensive and very time consuming. Really, just a general pain in the ass.
AGAP Camshafts for the engine family
Volvo B23/B230
There are three different series of valve lift profiles for this engine.
1: Street series
For standard bucket cam followers with diameter 33 mm shim. Similar aggressiveness as for Volvo
original camshafts.
2: Race series for 33 mm standard bucket cam follower
These are more aggressive and have different ramp design than the street series.
3: Race series for 37 mm bucket cam follower
Need to be used together with a bucket cam follower of minimum diameter 37 mm.
The camshafts are made to order and the valve lift profiles can be combined as the customer wish.
We can assist and recommend a camshaft to your engine combination, if you supply us with data on
your engine.
Parameters
Total duration Number of crank angle degrees the valve is are open at 0 valve lash
Rated Duration Number of crank angle degrees the valve is open from the point
where the ramps end, which is at about 0.5 mm valvelift
Duration 1.0 mm Number of crank angle degrees the valve is open at 1.0 mm lift
Duration 0.05” Number of crank angle degrees the valve is open at 0.05 inch, (1.27mm) lift
Lift Maximum lift in mm at 0 valve lash,
Max engine speed Max engine speed if used together with standard spring, valve etc.
Base circle Volvo original is 36 mm, with a smaller base circle lash caps will be needed
to achieve correct valve lash. These figures shall be considered as rough
Street series
The least aggressive profiles, designed similar to Volvo original camshafts.
To be used with original bucket cam follower, with diameter 33 mm shims. All profiles have 36 mm
base circle.
Street Total
duration
Rated
Duration
Duration
1.0 mm
Duration
0.05”
Lift
(mm)
Max engine
speed (rpm)
AGAP G-225-11.0 360 260 233 225 11.0 6500
AGAP G-234-11.5 368 268 242 234 11.5 6700
AGAP G-242-12.0 376 276 250 242 12.0 6800
AGAP G-253-12.5 388 288 261 253 12.5 7000
AGAP G-265-13.0 400 300 273 265 13.0 7300
For all the above valve lift profiles, recommended valve lash is 0.3-0.4 mm on warm engine.
Race series
These lift profiles are more aggressive, which opens the valve faster for maximum power. The
stresses in the valvetrain will be higher which will slightly limit the expected life time, they are also
more sensitive to valve lash adjustment. Therefore they are most suited for rally and racing engines.
There are one series for 33 mm bucket cam follower, and one that needs an bucket cam follower
with minimum diameter of 37 mm.
Race Series 33mm Total
duration
Rated
Duration
Duration
1.0 mm
Duration
0.05”
Lift
(mm)
Base circle
(mm)
AGAP R33-238-12.0 328 263 244 238 12.0 36
AGAP R33-243-12.4 332 267 249 243 12.4 36
AGAP R33-254-13.0 344 279 260 254 13.0 36
AGAP R33-262-13.4 352 287 268 262 13.4 35
AGAP R33-264-14.0 352 289 270 264 14.0 34
AGAP R33-273-14.0 364 299 279 273 14.0 34
AGAP R33-274-14.5 364 300 280 274 14.5 33
NEW AGAP R33-280-15.0 368 305 286 280 15.0 32
NEW AGAP R33-287-15.5 376 313 294 287 15.5 31
NEW AGAP R33.295-16.0 384 321 302 295 16.0 30
Race Series 37mm Total
duration
Rated
Duration
Duration
1.0 mm
Duration
0.05”
Lift
(mm)
Base circle
(mm)
AGAP R37-251-14.0 340 276 257 251 14.0 34
AGAP R37-258-14.6 348 283 265 258 14.6 32
AGAP R37-267-15.3 356 292 273 267 15.3 31
AGAP R37-275-16.0 364 299 281 275 16.0 30
AGAP R37-279-16.0 368 303 285 279 16.0 30
AGAP R37-283-16.0 372 307 289 283 16.0 30
AGAP R37-287-16.0 376 311 293 287 16.0 30
AGAP R37-291-16.0 380 315 297 291 16.0 30
For all Race Series valve lift profiles, recommended valve lash is 0.3-0.35 mm on warm engine.
For the higher lift profiles some grinding in the cylinder head might be needed to gain clearance.
Always control that there are sufficient clearance between the valves and piston before starting the
engine.
Price, camshaft with any of the lift profiles 3120 Skr +VAT = 3900 Skr
Different lift profile on exhaust/intake, add 400 Skr + VAT = 500 Skr
Camshaft Examples
R33-262-13.4, Lobe separation angle 109 degrees
Suitable camshaft for 2300cc turbo engine with 33 mm bucket cam followers, use 44/35 mm valves
or bigger, expected maximum power engine speed 6000 rpm.
R33-264-14.0, lobe separation angle 104 degrees
Suitable camshaft for 2300cc NA engine with 33 mm bucket cam followers, use 46/38 mm valves,
expected maximum power engine speed 6000 rpm.
R37-279-16.0, lobe separation angle 105 degrees
Suitable camshaft for race engine with 37 mm bucket cam followers, use 46/38 mm valves or
bigger, expected maximum power engine speed 6000 rpm. Cylinder volume 2300-2500 cc
Suitable engine
Valve lift profile Lobe Sep.
Angle
Valve size (mm)
Intake/Exhaust
Max power
engine speed
NA/Turb
o
Cylinder
volume
AGAP R33-262-13.4 109 44/35 6000 Turbo 2300
AGAP R33-264-14.0 104 46/38 6000 NA 2300
AGAP R37-279-16.0 105 46/38, 48/40 7000 NA 2300-2500
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:25 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbabbs View Post
If you didn't know you can buy a stock volvo 16v boat NA b230 motor, 171 horse power. Look for AQ171c or AQ251, same b230 with 16v head, better cams also then car 16v heads. Also it's 2.5L with steel stroker crankshaft.

I've bought a couple, to race em NA nothing is really needed I don't think, maybe stiffer valve springs for higher rev?

"Nicer" but still remarkably limp dick...lazy..
For fun n.a. you want something made with the intention of fun...not wheezy stuff that really is lame..
Something like


The difference is obvious..

Also since nobody mentioned it--since nobody here really makes actual high performance n.a. 4s---
TB performance guest-star Erland Cox has stated that the intake/exhaust flow in the 16v flow is skewed to the exhaust side which flows like 92% of the stock intake.. The long and short of it is that it should be in the mid 70s %...Kinda hard to make the exhaust flow less so make the intake flow more..He says a 38 or even 39mm intake valve can fix that problem..
And of course some real cams..

With a little work and real cams you can do this:
http://www.topplocksverkstan.se/volvo16vrc.html



Cams:

Quote:
Nedan lite Pipemax beräkningar på Volvo motorn.
Med 2.4 liters slagvolym hamnar maxeffekten någonstans runt 320 hp vid 8600 RPM. Lämpliga kamvärden för rallycross: 306 107 14,5 5-6,0ot in & ut 290 107 11.0 3,8ot.
Quote:
"below is a little Pipemax calculations on Volvo motor
with 2,4 liter volume the power ends up around 320 hp at 8600 rpm
Suitable cam values for rallycross (where you want a LOT of torque to launch hard out of slow corners) Intake: 306* duration , 14,5mm lift 5 to6mm intake valve lift at TDC
Exhaust 290 duration, 11mm lift, 3,8mm exhaust valve lift at TDC"
Of course you don't have to go that nuts but stock cams..meh!
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:51 PM   #41
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Man that's alot of duration on those cams. Any audio clips?
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:32 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosbySweater View Post
Man that's alot of duration on those cams. Any audio clips?

Always remember when you see those Euro cams at 300 or 312 degrees..
They count the moment the needle on the dial indicator twitches..


Just get the compression up to at least 10.8 static comp, more if you have aluminum head, and they run fine even in rush hour stop and go traffic..

I built scores and scores of V4s with 310/308 degree cams and when compression was lower, like 9.8 or 10.2 they were kinda OK, but when I started importing pistons that made them zero deck and bopped comp up they were great..When anybody ever bought a NEW distributor (I started importing them in 1990, had been NLA for 8-9 years then) they idled nice at about 975-1000.
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:32 AM   #43
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So, if one where to build a hot 16v motor with heavy cams like that and 10+ compression ratio, are they at 250hp? I bet a proper EMS system were needed, not a lh2.4 type of thing?

That'd be so cool to build a stock ish looking thing, lh2.4 (chipped) with a 16v motor, super hot inside, and a decent drivetrain to follow.

What do those motors rev to, 8k?
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:48 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brendon_ak View Post
So, if one where to build a hot 16v motor with heavy cams like that and 10+ compression ratio, are they at 250hp? I bet a proper EMS system were needed, not a lh2.4 type of thing?

That'd be so cool to build a stock ish looking thing, lh2.4 (chipped) with a 16v motor, super hot inside, and a decent drivetrain to follow.

What do those motors rev to, 8k?
Yeah but you wont wif stockish looking (well I know ways you can but its sorta more work just for the "look" of being stockish) Even more than all the 8v motors, the intake runner ID is too small for any fun..It is a serious bottleneck... ITBs , 48 DCOEs, or custom manifold with good ID...

And we hain't talking super hot..That's what's so frustrating around this place with everybody an expert..These specs in these cams and the stuff from Erland, these aren't ""Super Hot"... Super hot crap would have cams in the 336 degree range, rev to 10,500

(The cams I posted above, those were n.a. cams that DID rev to 9,500--but the guy had a close ration box with 2.2 first gear and 1 to 1 top and a 5.15 final drive. that was a HOT motor and we could do it HOT because I knew he had the gearbox to work with it..)

These spec are reasonable "pretty hot" rally specs..rally where you're frequently off throttle and engine revs have fallen ---then you stomp on it..Rally guys--and rally cross, need motors that PULL good from relative low (closed) throttle..

Now maybe to all the keyboard heroes who have not really built any "fairly hot" motors this may seem "Super hot" but its not..
So let's stop calling it that so maybe one day some brave soul will build something fun--in a coordinated package.
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Old 10-25-2018, 02:07 AM   #45
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I'm totally derailing the thread here but if one where to build a 16v NA motor for track use where throttle input is relatively known and less volatile, does that mean that you could build a motor for a 9k+ redline and a power curve that's usable above 6k?

I suppose the track and gearbox/rear end ratio are key too.
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:42 PM   #46
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Johns right on point with the intake being to small on a 16v. On the 16v rally engine I built (11.8:1 CR and stroker crank), I ported the intake when I had it cut in half for shortening. Even with the wall thickness of the runners being about 1mm, it was still too small. The engine still pulled hard from 3k-8k rpm, but lacked the higher rev rush that it should of had.

That engine has 276deg cams and hydraulic lifters. The engine pulled to 8k and never had any valve train issues.
Same grind as the Techtonic Tuning 16v Sport cams: http://www.techtonicstuning.com/cams.html
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Old 10-29-2018, 07:21 AM   #47
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Quick questions for you folks. Can the pistons be changed by only removing the head? If so then how do you feel about only using high comp pistons and a 16v head? Nothing else. Thanks for your thoughts.
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Old 10-29-2018, 08:03 AM   #48
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Only the head? No.
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Old 10-29-2018, 08:19 AM   #49
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For the money you are looking to spend, why not a used 5.3 iron truck engine? Even a stock 5.3 will blow your socks off compared to a n/a redblock. 295 HP stock. You can always build from that too. They respond real well to turbos in case you don't know.
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Old 10-29-2018, 10:16 AM   #50
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Did he LS swap it yet?
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