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-   -   140 suspension geo correction (https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=339759)

Tfrasca 02-13-2018 01:03 PM

140 suspension geo correction
 
So, I've had my 140 fairly slammed for a while, and it sucks. Roll center is too low, and it flops around more than it should with the stiff springs and GAZ shocks that are on it. Obviously, there are no easy aftermarket solutions like there are for a 240.

I'm doing the balljoints and bushings now, and I got to thinking about drop spindles. I looked at the spindles and immediately stopped thinking about that. But then I wondered if you could get the same effect by changing the location of the ball joints on each control arm. Couldn't one just weld a piece of pipe with the appropriate ID for the ball joints onto the control arms, moving the ball joints' locations relative to the angle of the control arms? It seems like that would get the ride height down while maintaining proper control arm angles.

What am I overlooking?

mocambique-amazone 02-13-2018 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tfrasca (Post 5749769)
So, I've had my 140 fairly slammed for a while, and it sucks. Roll center is too low, and it flops around more than it should with the stiff springs and GAZ shocks that are on it. Obviously, there are no easy aftermarket solutions like there are for a 240.

I'm doing the balljoints and bushings now, and I got to thinking about drop spindles. I looked at the spindles and immediately stopped thinking about that. But then I wondered if you could get the same effect by changing the location of the ball joints on each control arm. Couldn't one just weld a piece of pipe with the appropriate ID for the ball joints onto the control arms, moving the ball joints' locations relative to the angle of the control arms? It seems like that would get the ride height down while maintaining proper control arm angles.

What am I overlooking?

Hi Tfrasca,

You have to move the lower ball joint in relation to the spindle. The position of the ball is important, not the postion of the mounting of the ball joint. If you raise the fixing point of the upper (or lower) ball joint 10 inch, nothing will change, exept of camber.

I didn't find till now a "longer" ball joint that will fit into the 140/164 front axle. They exist, not for Volvo for bad luck.
If you build something with uniballs and adapters it will work, not road legal in germany.
Tink about the kaplhenke stuff for the 240 series, this do work.
something like this : https://www.joesracing.com/i-2109113...all-joint.html

I did modify a front axle of a 142 with a dropped spindle, can't find pics in this moment. If I'll find the axle in my workshop I do a pic, if....

regards, Kay

Redwood Chair 02-13-2018 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tfrasca (Post 5749769)

What am I overlooking?

Spring cups in the LCA?

Tfrasca 02-13-2018 02:40 PM

Ah, that's right. I wasn't thinking about the pivot itself in relation to the spindle. I would like to see your modified 140 axle though.

Tfrasca 02-13-2018 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwood Chair (Post 5749875)
Spring cups in the LCA?

That doesn't change the geometry of the control arms though. At a low ride height, they're still pointing upwards, regardless of the lower mounting point of the spring.

Redwood Chair 02-13-2018 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tfrasca (Post 5749881)
That doesn't change the geometry of the control arms though. At a low ride height, they're still pointing upwards, regardless of the lower mounting point of the spring.

True it's still going to overwork your steering box like crazy.

Redwood Chair 02-13-2018 02:59 PM

That said IPD used to sell a lowering spring kit with #500 front springs that lowered the car ~ 2" and rode like utter crap.

Råda 02-13-2018 03:02 PM

Cut, weld and adapt BMW stuff or something else with an aftermarket support

https://www1.garaget.org/archive/35/...65-1478639.jpg

Jack 02-13-2018 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Råda (Post 5749908)
Cut, weld and adapt BMW stuff or something else with an aftermarket support

https://www1.garaget.org/archive/35/...65-1478639.jpg

might be easier to start with an Amazon then

Tfrasca 02-13-2018 03:18 PM

If that's an option, I think I'd sooner look into some other, more modern double wishbone front suspension and crossmember. Corvette C4 like Canuck is putting in his amazon, for instance.

mocambique-amazone 02-16-2018 04:30 PM

Hi Tfrasca, You have to lower the lower Ball joint, not to raise the top one. I've got cold and can't go into my frozen workshop soon, sorry about this.
I tried to order "longer" Ball joints for the Amazon and the 140/164 in the past to change the roll center. They would do it, If I order a big quantity af them. If I win in the lotterie I will order them....
race stuff would be more easy to get, no chance to get this permitted on the German roads.
The 140/164 front suspension is waaaay better than the Amazon, with correct spindles a joy and pleasure to ride. Softer springs and bigger arb's is the rule. Fun fun fun. i'm running a 144 with power steering and modifed front axle and won't modify anything anymore. My 142 is raised now, a new front suspension for this reason and the old one is in the workshop, under rear axles and front axles and..... a mountain of staff.
Regards, Kay

Tfrasca 02-16-2018 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mocambique-amazone (Post 5752055)
Hi Tfrasca, You have to lower the lower Ball joint, not to raise the top one. I've got cold and can't go into my frozen workshop soon, sorry about this.
I tried to order "longer" Ball joints for the Amazon and the 140/164 in the past to change the roll center. They would do it, If I order a big quantity af them. If I win in the lotterie I will order them....
race stuff would be more easy to get, no chance to get this permitted on the German roads.
The 140/164 front suspension is waaaay better than the Amazon, with correct spindles a joy and pleasure to ride. Softer springs and bigger arb's is the rule. Fun fun fun. i'm running a 144 with power steering and modifed front axle and won't modify anything anymore. My 142 is raised now, a new front suspension for this reason and the old one is in the workshop, under rear axles and front axles and..... a mountain of staff.
Regards, Kay

I have a big front sway bar (iPD), and my springs might actually be a little too stiff. I just did all the bushings and ball joints, and it already feels a lot better than it did. It would be cool to get longer ball joints though. I doubt there's enough demand to have a run of them made, though.

Lankku 02-16-2018 06:53 PM

Tfrasca, how low is your car?

I built a 142 couple years back. It was decently low and wandered pretty badly when changing lanes or braking while changing lanes. It was terrible to drive especially with studded winter tires, felt like front end was floating on a layer of jelly. I changed new front springs which lifted the front around 1.5cm. All the wandering and vague steering feel disappeared.

This was the height before lifting the front:
https://lankku.kuvat.fi/kuvat/142%20...jpg?img=medium
Yeah fender and door do not line up correctly, fiberglass fender.

22mm front swaybar, no rear sway bar, poly bushings here and there, Gaz adjustable shocks all round, thick MB front springs, upgraded idler arm bushing, etc. No modifications to ball joints or other places, just a bit more caster with upper control arm adjustments.

Tfrasca 02-16-2018 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lankku (Post 5752171)
Tfrasca, how low is your car?

I built a 142 couple years back. It was decently low and wandered pretty badly when changing lanes or braking while changing lanes. It was terrible to drive especially with studded winter tires, felt like front end was floating on a layer of jelly. I changed new front springs which lifted the front around 1.5cm. All the wandering and vague steering feel disappeared.

This was the height before lifting the front:

Yeah fender and door do not line up correctly, fiberglass fender.

24mm front swaybar, no rear sway bar, poly bushings here and there, Gaz adjustable shocks all round, thick MB front springs, upgraded idler arm bushing, etc. No modifications to ball joints or other places, just a bit more caster with upper control arm adjustments.

My car WAS maybe a bit lower than that. But I recently put 1" spring spacers in it to lift the front up. It did help a bit with the wallowing feel. I hope to get it aligned next week so I can really see how it does with all new stuff.


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