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Recommend me spring rates

BeaverMeat

Active member
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Location
Vancouver Island
My car is in need of struts… so might as well go ahead with an upgrade.

Wanting to go with the BNE regular height Koni set-up all around. I may lower the car 1” maybe idk. I’m fine with stockish ride height.

I’m looking for street performance… I doubt I’m going to track or motor cross it. But… if the chance arrives I may do so.

1981 264 Deisel with a Fox 5.0 T-5 swap.

Current set-up is stock deisel springs with early 2000s IPD sway bars (they are not painted blue)

What are some suggestions that would work with the current sway bars? I have zero familiarity with the 240s suspension. All I know is with live axle cars you want soft rear and tight front.
 
My car is in need of struts… so might as well go ahead with an upgrade.

Wanting to go with the BNE regular height Koni set-up all around. I may lower the car 1” maybe idk. I’m fine with stockish ride height.

I’m looking for street performance… I doubt I’m going to track or motor cross it. But… if the chance arrives I may do so.

1981 264 Deisel with a Fox 5.0 T-5 swap.

Current set-up is stock deisel springs with early 2000s IPD sway bars (they are not painted blue)

What are some suggestions that would work with the current sway bars? I have zero familiarity with the 240s suspension. All I know is with live axle cars you want soft rear and tight front.
You already have the HD front springs.
In the rear do overloads.

Do you have the upper and lower GT braces?
 
You already have the HD front springs.
In the rear do overloads.

Do you have the upper and lower GT braces?
I have the lower IPD braces… not the upper. I do have an older IPD strutbar that I’ve been wanting to swap out.

As for the springs I’m wanting to go a bit stiffer. Idk. ~250 lbf/in.

What ratio works with this car? 244 with a SBF

4:1, 3:1?
 
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You need to define what you mean by improved street performance. Otherwise, all I see is you're happy with the ride height... you don't foresee any need to set it up for autocross (which as you know is a completely different kettle of fish)... You already have some of the best springs Volvo made... But you want to "upgrade" it? Why? To keep up with the Joneses who are never satisfied unless they make mods? To address a cultivated fear that any mass produced object is always a haphazard mess of compromises and therefore any mod, by definition, must obviously be an improvement? You're bored and want to try something different? You prefer tearing your car apart so you can't drive it? You've got cash burning a hole in your pocket?

Having a goal in mind of how you want this car to behave, and under what conditions, will serve you well. Developing an idea of what you're willing to invest (time & money, and severity/depth of changes) will also help you. So far, the ideas you've put forth don't indicate any significant need to change anything radical... if at all.

If any of the above engages thought, you're welcome. If I've just saved you thousands, you may forward it to me in the manner of your choosing. :lol:
 
You need to define what you mean by improved street performance. Otherwise, all I see is you're happy with the ride height... you don't foresee any need to set it up for autocross (which as you know is a completely different kettle of fish)... You already have some of the best springs Volvo made... But you want to "upgrade" it? Why? To keep up with the Joneses who are never satisfied unless they make mods? To address a cultivated fear that any mass produced object is always a haphazard mess of compromises and therefore any mod, by definition, must obviously be an improvement? You're bored and want to try something different? You prefer tearing your car apart so you can't drive it? You've got cash burning a hole in your pocket?

Having a goal in mind of how you want this car to behave, and under what conditions, will serve you well. Developing an idea of what you're willing to invest (time & money, and severity/depth of changes) will also help you. So far, the ideas you've put forth don't indicate any significant need to change anything radical... if at all.

If any of the above engages thought, you're welcome. If I've just saved you thousands, you may forward it to me in the manner of your choosing. :lol:

First off… I’m not into “stance bro”.

I don’t want the car to handle like a shopping cart anymore. I guess to some that’s just fine if you’re getting… groceries.

It’s got a V8. It has some power… going quick in a straight line is boring. I like going quick around a corner.

So… my goal is some extra road handling prowess.
 
Wanting to go with the BNE regular height Koni set-up all around. I may lower the car 1” maybe idk. I’m fine with stockish ride height.

I’m looking for street performance… I doubt I’m going to track or motor cross it. But… if the chance arrives I may do so.

Similar situation but with a lowered 240 v8 242.

Every "upgrade" I through at the car made it ride, and handle, worse. (I suppose that also includes adding several hundred pounds more to the front end). The moment you lower the car you change the car's roll center which means you're going to need a set of Bne's roll center correctors. If you're going to keep it at 1", then scrap the idea of coilovers (not sure if that's what you were after) and just go with the IPD lowering springs... 150lb/in spring rate will feel nice and stockish without feeling too stiff. Or, don't do anything except upgrading your dampers.

I have always wanted to try the koni sports because of the adjustability... for that reason I'm also considering the GAZ struts/shocks offered by yoshifab. I hate the feeling of B6 bilstein HD's. (love them in a 740, just hate the damping in a 240).
 
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I was really happy with 250# front coilover springs and cut overload springs out back, the car was ~1” lower than stock. We often towed with the car or had 2 people in the back, so the stiffer rear springs were great. Bilstein HDs in the front, Gabriel Ultra shocks out back. The car was DD’d, went to drift events, went to track days, and went to Home Depot and Lowes.

Keep the stock away bars, and IPD lowering springs if you want a slightly lower ride height without breaking the bank.
 
I recommend the Koni sports or the GAZ shocks to give you some adjustability. For springs if you have the $$ and don't mind overseas ordering. ClassicSwede.org sells a set of 15mm lowering springs. The shipping is expensive but that's international shipping nowadays.
 
Similar situation but with a lowered 240 v8 242.

Every "upgrade" I through at the car made it ride, and handle, worse. (I suppose that also includes adding several hundred pounds more to the front end). The moment you lower the car you change the car's roll center which means you're going to need a set of Bne's roll center correctors. If you're going to keep it at 1", then scrap the idea of coilovers (not sure if that's what you were after) and just go with the IPD lowering springs... 150lb/in spring rate will feel nice and stockish without feeling too stiff. Or, don't do anything except upgrading your dampers.

I have always wanted to try the koni sports because of the adjustability... for that reason I'm also considering the GAZ struts/shocks offered by yoshifab. I hate the feeling of B6 bilstein HD's. (love them in a 740, just hate the damping in a 240).

To be fair... I'm not looking to "lower" the car unless there is a reason for doing so. The ipds look like a cosmetic "upgrade" but I don't care about my stance.

1.75" F and 1.5" R drop? A rear bias "rake" looks "good" but It puts more weight to the front reducing rear grip. Great for showing off, but not for actual performance driving.

From my understanding of live-axle cars is you want more weight transfer to the rear under load... these cars tend to steer with throttle input and having no grip at the rear means no control.

I was really happy with 250# front coilover springs and cut overload springs out back, the car was ~1” lower than stock. We often towed with the car or had 2 people in the back, so the stiffer rear springs were great. Bilstein HDs in the front, Gabriel Ultra shocks out back. The car was DD’d, went to drift events, went to track days, and went to Home Depot and Lowes.

Keep the stock away bars, and IPD lowering springs if you want a slightly lower ride height without breaking the bank.

That's what I was thinking... Just coilovers in the front and stock-ish set-up in the rear. That way I can just lift and lower the front end to find the right weight transfer balance.

I may need corner weigh the car an do some mathimagicals
 
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The V8 thing seems to causes some issues with balance. Since there seems to be very little data on how to make a V8 swapped car handle properly because most guy just drag or drift them. I aspire for corning grip. I am a former Miata and 350Z owner.

That's what I was thinking... Just coilovers in the front and stock-ish set-up in the rear. I can adjust the front to suit the heavier front end.

I may need corner weigh the car an do some mathimagicals

When I weighed the 5.slow with alloy heads it was within 50-60lbs of a b230ft with intercooler. With OEM sedan springs there was basically no real change in the way it sat and drove.
If you want cornering grip on a 240 you want to look into the back end of the car (assuming the front isn't totally borked). The front's pretty solid unless you lower it substantially without correcting the roll center or have terrible alignment.
 
The V8 thing seems to causes some issues with balance. Since there seems to be very little data on how to make a V8 swapped car handle properly because most guy just drag or drift them. I aspire for corning grip. I am a former Miata and 350Z owner.
For reference, I can (could, it's been a few years) turn a consistent 2:05 CW at ORP on street tires (300tw) with allegedly hitting a 1:58 according to the turbo miata that I was chasing down.
250lb fronts with a large front bar, cut overloads out back and no rear bar. Using alllll the brakes and tires on the fast lap.

Some reference vids of the track in question:
 
I've used Koni Sport yellow struts & shocks on my 4cyl '92 244 for a long time. I think the first spring I tried was 8" x 400lb but the struts were not up to the task. Bouncy. Too soft on rebound. Not good.

I switched to 350lb next, then 300lb. 300lb was probably still too much spring for the struts, but it was pretty decent. That's still in there today...I don't know how many miles, but it's been a long time. I've driven the car pretty hard at Mountain Meet / Tail of the Dragon, and it has done well there. Autocross...not so much....the quick transitions could use a bit more roll resistance.

I think I would try 250lb if you go with 2.5" ID coilover springs. Ben sells the hardware for those (sleeve & lower seat) and whatever other combination of stuff you need. I don't know what length to suggest, so ask Ben.

I started the rear spring rate journey with 11 x 200 stock car springs, many many years ago, paired with Jamex lowering springs on the front, and off the shelf Bilstein HDs. Nice amount of oversteer, but easy to control. It was non-turbo, B230F.

Eventually I switched to revalved Bilstein HDs and 475lb front springs. Then got up as high as 325lb rear and that was too stiff. Settled back to 250lb as my autoX rear spring rate of choice (11", stock 240 upper spring seat used on the bottom, cheap stock car 5" springs)

My revalved HDs were nearly the same spec as Dave Barton's here: https://www.240turbo.com/specsheet245.html#bilsteins I think 220/110 front and identical on the rear. Mine was a sedan instead of wagon, so a bit lighter, but with heavier spring rate. Krupp-Bilstein in San Diego picked the rates based on the corner weight, spring rate, and intended use that I told them.

I've used up to 700lb front springs for road racing (24hr lemons, '91 245), but we dropped down to 475lb (take-offs from my autoX car) and I think that was better considering we were limited to 200 treadwear street tires. With R-comps...maybe the 700s could work. 500'ish on the front works well if you're really trying to change directions quickly and don't care about ride quality. You definitely can't do this on off the shelf Koni yellows, though.

Soft rear works well, 150-250lb. I guess I would say about 2:1, front:rear spring rate is what I've liked. 550lb front, 250lb rear on my autoX car in its final iteration. 25mm or 28mm front bar, no rear bar. about 3deg front camber.

We used cut wagon overload rear springs + stiff R-Sport shocks on the rear of 245 24hr lemons car, and it handled awesome with the revalved HDs + 475lb front springs....and at least 3deg negative camber from ball joint spacers to widen the front track width. That was ~3:1. And again, 25mm front bar, no rear bar.
160231672.jpg


Prior to donating my stiff R-sport rear shocks to our 24hr lemons car (valving here, 400/100: https://www.240turbo.com/specsheet245.html#rsportshocks ), I used them on the back of a softly sprung 244 daily driver with stock rear springs. The rear of that car was PLANTED. Over dips, the rear did not pop up at all like a soft-rebound rear shock tended to do. Try off the shelf Bilstein HDs + lowering springs or overload springs, and the rebound feels too soft. I used 12x250lb front springs with stock rear springs. Stock ride height. Really comfortable, easy to drive, but still with a decent amount of roll, so not super precise if you try to push it. I used 205/60/15 on 15x7, max comfort. It was a lot better than stock, yet very far from the autoX setup. Very comfortable.


tl;dr -- start with 250lb front springs and whatever you have on the rear. It should ride nice and handle nice.
 
When I weighed the 5.slow with alloy heads it was within 50-60lbs of a b230ft with intercooler. With OEM sedan springs there was basically no real change in the way it sat and drove.
If you want cornering grip on a 240 you want to look into the back end of the car (assuming the front isn't totally borked). The front's pretty solid unless you lower it substantially without correcting the roll center or have terrible alignment.

I edited my comment... I'm bad for that. o_O

So I'm probably 100 lbs over a "standard" 240 sedan being that my 5.0 is a 1990 original minus the smog pump and A/C.

To be fair... I'm not looking to "lower" the car unless there is a reason for doing so. The ipds look like a cosmetic "upgrade" but I don't care about my stance.

1.75" F and 1.5" R drop? A rear bias "rake" looks "good" but It puts more weight to the front reducing rear grip. Great for showing off, but not for actual performance driving.

From my understanding of live-axle cars is you want more weight transfer to the rear under load... these cars tend to steer with throttle input and having no grip at the rear means no control.

I think we are on the same page. My rear-end is swapped from a 1030 3.73 to a 1031 3.31 with a TrueTrac mounded with BNE conical bushings and hybrid torque rods which made a huge difference. I'm half way there.
 
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I used 205/60/15 on 15x7, max comfort


tl;dr -- start with 250lb front springs and whatever you have on the rear. It should ride nice and handle nice.

That's what I'm using now. 15x7 Multi-Xs with el-cheap-o 205/60/15s... not too many options I think the best I can get is Radial T/As

Don't like the look of 16s"
 
For reference, I can (could, it's been a few years) turn a consistent 2:05 CW at ORP on street tires (300tw) with allegedly hitting a 1:58 according to the turbo miata that I was chasing down.
250lb fronts with a large front bar, cut overloads out back and no rear bar. Using alllll the brakes and tires on the fast lap.

Some reference vids of the track in question:
That sounds like a very streetable set up. Still good for easy/comfortable daily driving. OP, those are smokin’ fast ORP lap times culberro is/was running with that set up. You don’t need any more than what he is suggesting.
 
That sounds like a very streetable set up. Still good for easy/comfortable daily driving. OP, those are smokin’ fast ORP lap times culberro is/was running with that set up. You don’t need any more than what he is suggesting
So I guess my… guess of 250 front was spot on. I know the the Diesel springs are 100.

I was really happy with 250# front coilover springs and cut overload springs out back, the car was ~1” lower than stock. We often towed with the car or had 2 people in the back, so the stiffer rear springs were great. Bilstein HDs in the front, Gabriel Ultra shocks out back. The car was DD’d, went to drift events, went to track days, and went to Home Depot and Lowes.

Keep the stock away bars, and IPD lowering springs if you want a slightly lower ride height without breaking the bank.

So… how any coils do you cut off? And what is used for a fromt coil-over/spring?

I’m not able to modify OE so I’ll have to buy something.

I’m rusty with my suspension witchcraft… I’m guessing I have 25mm bars front and rear being that they are IPD for a sedan. Will measure. Since I am increasing the spring rate for a more front bias I should put a smaller front bar in the front so the car can transfer weight.

When I had my Miata there was a suspension calculation that determined what roll bars you needed for front and rear spring rates to make the motion ratios the same all around… each corner moved at the same rate. I tuned my Miata that way using NB Mazdaspeed struts with an OE NA6 front bar and NB Mazdaspeed rear bar with a 1/2” rear rake on my 91. Put -2* camber in the front and holy shit did that car ever drive like it was on rails!
 
That’s not the motion ratio. That’s balancing the roll resistance (roll couple). Not a bad idea, and there are stiffness calcs out there for roll bars.
I can type the math if you want.
Cliffs, stiffness is related to the 4th power of dia, coils are related to the 3rd. I think. No notes.
 
That’s not the motion ratio. That’s balancing the roll resistance (roll couple). Not a bad idea, and there are stiffness calcs out there for roll bars.
I can type the math if you want.
Cliffs, stiffness is related to the 4th power of dia, coils are related to the 3rd. I think. No notes.

This is what I used to calculate my set-up. I geek out on this kinds of stuff.

Too bad no-one has gotten this technical with the 240 chassis… *goes online and starts looking for an other Miata*
 
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